[updated for clarity in a few places... bracketed elements within quotes are my additions]
Jones- I find ur ideas interesting and will continue 2 read ur blog, but our correspondance is no longer working for me, so i think this will be my last post.
fair enough. feel free to return at any point, should you like.
…i think the biggest thing we could do to improve political abuses is to come up with a sort of ‘common methodology for asserting the rights of the less powerful.’ a big part of building that will have to be the kind of ‘political pandit’ work u show special talent for.
glad you find it useful. you come back to this topic at the end, so i’ll have more to say there.
here’s my biggest sticking point in corresponding with u: i don’t feel like i can count on u to take ownership for the emotional content of the conversation, up to and including emotional attacks.
yeah, ditto. more on this below.
for instance, when i suggest that wilber displays poor use of logic (emotionally neutral), u recharacterize my suggestion as calling wilber ’stupid’, adding a negative emotional charge.
you’ve rewritten yourself here in a way that removes the emotional charge from your original statement. what you actually wrote was: “wilber’s ability to process information logically is exceptionally poor.” if i said that about you, what sort of emotional charge would you experience? would you feel i was calling you stupid? my guess is you would. in fact, in order to argue the neutrality of your expression, you edit it after the fact to diminish the emotional content, and then project the inclusion of that content onto me.
when i point out wilber’s specious arguments (emotionally neutral), u recharacterize my description as “your sense that [wilber] is a bad person.”
more misrepresentation. here’s a sample of what you actually wrote, in response to my question about what in particular you objected to in Wilber’s system:
it seems to me that wilber’s inner circle are confused kids in their early 20s who he takes advantage of by convincing them he’s the philosopher equivilent of a cult guru.
so my objection to wilber is not primary [primarily] with any individual claim, but the overall rationalization of a masked one-way transaction which excludes empathy, justifying whatever he wants it to.
in short, you identify him as an abusive cult leader, and say that your primary objection to him is not any specious argument or aspect of his articulated system, but this behavioral pattern. there’s no stretch at all to call such a figure a ‘bad person’ (especially if we understand personhood in the Confucian sense, as a being involved in social relationships productive of the common good… a similar understanding of human personhood is expressed by the Reverend Mother Mohiam in the opening chapter of DUNE), or to say that you regard him as such. your focus from the very beginning has not been on analyzing Wilber’s arguments, but on characterizing his behavior as that of “a cult guru.” it has from the beginning been a moral critique of his person.
elsewhere, you describe him as “yicky” and yet elsewhere write:
…wilber generally advances his claims via implication with an air of certainty (which seems slippery and dishonest to me)
clearly emotionally loaded terms of judgment.
thus, again, you’re misrepresenting yourself and projecting the disowned emotional content of your approach onto me.
or when i alluded to ur principal giving u a ‘harsh reprimand’ with the word ‘frustration,’ u suggest that my word choice inaccurately claimed emotional displeasure (frustration) because the word harsh indicates only an emotionally-neutral matter of degree (”a harsh reprimand as opposed to a mild reprimand”). but the word harsh isn’t emotionally neutral (like for instance “a strong reprimand”); it specifically indicates a negative emotional reaction (aka frustration) on the part of the speaker.
that’s an interesting distinction, but i think it’s off. a mild reprimand would have been a disapproving word. a strong reprimand would have been a stern lecture. so what should i call a man screaming and banging his desk? ‘harsh’ seems reasonable to me.
it seems to me that in this example you’re applying an unreasonable standard according to which i must ‘own’ whatever emotional content you infer. note also that you simply dropped the other half of the above example (which didn’t fit with the narrative you’re constructing), in which i demonstrated how your inference of my ‘confusion’ (another inferred state) was based on your own misunderstanding.
gates/jobs…
so u wrote: “my sense, for what it’s worth, is that you’re attempting to deprecate Wilber entirely – to render him as a complete charlatan [i.e. an abusive cult guru]… i think that picture is deeply influenced by your emotional drive here.” that accusation is not against any specific act(s) on my part, and so is an attack against me personally. however camoflaged, that’s an unfair emotional attack in the form of (roundabout) name-calling.
you’ve edited your jobs/gates story in such a way that it is critically not representative of what occurred between us. try this:
mr. jobs: i think two cents is insufficient pay, and that your policy is inhumane.
mr gates: i think you’re a hypocrite.
—your narrative ends here, but the story itself continues—
mr jobs: why?
mr gates: for accusing me of something you do yourself.
see the difference? just because i didn’t put the specific, refutable, item first, doesn’t mean i didn’t present it. i’ve presented it at length. in fact, we were just involved in discussing it. by leaving that part out of your example you edit your representation in such a way that proves your point but distorts reality. it’s a tactic simiar to ‘proof by animation’ whereby a critically non-representative model is substituted for reality and referred to as if it were accurate.
you have repeatedly represented my assertion characterizing your approach to Wilber as mere name-calling, made without reference to any specific behaviors. this is simply untrue.
the other thing i’m having some trouble with is our debates about information hygene, or the degree of conclusiveness of claims. yeah, i generalize about trolls from my personal anecdotal experience – that’s perfectly legal. it would be specious if i were to misrepresent that generalization as something more conclusive, but i don’t – how much more clearly could i indicate that i’m talking about what i’ve personally seen than to use the words “[generalized rule] that i’ve seen…”? it’s frustrating for me to have to work thru arguments about what is/is not legal in debate that u could easily pick up in a single class on logic or rhetoric (i think that stuff can only be learned from a human teacher, not a book).
[sigh] ok, you’ve simply ignored my question about what the point would be of mentioning your experience if you didn’t feel your generalization was a fair approximation of reality, i.e. significant. once again, you’ve edited the narrative, so that the story ends where you ask how much more clear you could have been than saying ‘i have seen.’ i’ll tell you: clarify the extent and nature of your experience so that i have some clue as to how to evaluate both the substance of your perspective and your intention in presenting it. (Chomsky is scrupulous about doing so in his talks. watch him.)
as it is, to say “everyone i have seen” in a tone of authority, without specifying the limits of your experience, is to claim significance implicitly, but in an unaccountable way. sound familiar?
i feel like we get derailed by tedious and irrelevant semantic arguments – it’s not so important to my point how u or i or blog owners define troll in regards to emotional attacks, etc. – the issue is i’m experiencing a lack of regard for my feelings and a lack of ownership for emotional messaging when we disagree, and it’s my impression that i’m not the first person to have that experience with u.
type of logical fallacy: anonymous authorities
beyond that, given your own history, what makes you so sure that this is an instance in my history and not yours?
i’ve said before i see value in just sorting one’s ideas out via blogging. but i don’t think the tao ends with merely sorting out one’s convictions. rather, those convictions only become valuable (and realisitic) as they’re translated into action. i think part of the tao is going beyond talking to become the change one wants to see in the world, and i think u believe that too.
we have no disagreement there. you’ve ignored the point, though, that it is entirely inappropriate of you to pass judgment on the general state of my life and self-realization. this whole bit is just absurdly out of bounds:
i think i have the same right 2 criticize u for complaining so heatedly about dkos, yet not be willing to step up & be the change u want to see in the world. i hear that starting a blog would take a lot of work – what *would* u be willing 2 do to put ur money where ur mouth is?
and that’s the (supposedly) emotionally neutral version, the walk back from ‘impotent complaining.’ beyond being emotionally loaded (’complaining’ is clearly a term of depreciation, ’step up’ implies a failure of responsibility, ‘money where mouth’ implies hypocrisy) and presumptuous, it’s factually in error on multiple levels. as you’ve ceased posting, i’m not going to bother going into them. for now, that you actually believe you have the right (not to mention the ability) to make blanket criticisms of my life, that such is the “same right” as my expressing specific, refutable, critiques of your approach within specific contexts of discussion, sums up for me where we part company.
it reminds me of a phrase perhaps you’ve heard:
shawbag, you know what you need is to join the army…
anyway, i entirely agree that it is appropriate that this discussion end. i would have preferred to talk about the prospect of an intertemporal map of revolutionary principles, and some other sort of site. as i’ve said, i’m totally open to the idea… i just don’t see yet what it entails.