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	<title>Comments on: On The Sufies by Idries Shah</title>
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	<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:08:09 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55888</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55888</guid>
		<description>Thank you for adding Guenon&#039;s historical research books on Theosophy and Spiitualism to the list. In those texts (which can be downloaded from the Internet for free, just google them) Guénon not only provides documentation and first hand witness testimonies but also takes on the doctrinal basis of those two special specimens of the Occultist field.
What seems evident in your appraisal of Guenon&#039;s work is that you recognize the high calibre of his mind and the truly elevated level of his writing. That is also found in Idries Shah&#039;s work, even if the emphasis is on other aspects of Sufism. Their critics never achieve to that level of quality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for adding Guenon&#8217;s historical research books on Theosophy and Spiitualism to the list. In those texts (which can be downloaded from the Internet for free, just google them) Guénon not only provides documentation and first hand witness testimonies but also takes on the doctrinal basis of those two special specimens of the Occultist field.<br />
What seems evident in your appraisal of Guenon&#8217;s work is that you recognize the high calibre of his mind and the truly elevated level of his writing. That is also found in Idries Shah&#8217;s work, even if the emphasis is on other aspects of Sufism. Their critics never achieve to that level of quality.</p>
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		<title>By: Ibn Abdul Shafi</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55884</link>
		<dc:creator>Ibn Abdul Shafi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55884</guid>
		<description>Brilliant recommendation, I have read Guenon as well and there are many secrets mentioned in his work that, when one puts things together, can ignite a fire in the mind.

His historical works are as valuable as his esoteric ones, chiefly his history on Theosophy and the Spiritualist Movements, in which he isolates an interesting hidden current behind some social and political happenings.

Regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant recommendation, I have read Guenon as well and there are many secrets mentioned in his work that, when one puts things together, can ignite a fire in the mind.</p>
<p>His historical works are as valuable as his esoteric ones, chiefly his history on Theosophy and the Spiritualist Movements, in which he isolates an interesting hidden current behind some social and political happenings.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55463</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55463</guid>
		<description>Many thanks for clarifying an issue that has confounded people over a number of years, namely the assertion by Shah that he was a descendant of Prophet Mohammed on the male side.

May I also suggest Sheikh Abd-ul Wahid Yahya as one who also was much more straightforward than Shah about many important aspects of Sufism? 

He wrote books under his French name: René Guénon.

I find his Perspectives on Initiation (Aperçus sur l&#039;initiation, 1946) particularly enlightening on what a spiritual teacher is for and what a path of spiritual development truly is, that also clears away a lot of common misunderstandings.

Man and His Becoming according to the Vedânta (L&#039;homme et son devenir selon le Vêdânta, 1925) is a very thorough description of the spiritual development possible to man even if presented by means of the terminology of the ancient Indian Vedas. The content of this book is a fundamental piece of information for anyone interested in the field. 

I must also mention here (even if striving to make this list extremely short) The Reign of Quantity &amp; the Signs of the Times (Le règne de la quantité et les signes des temps, 1945) which is a thorough diagnosis of Western culture and civilization from the standpoint of one who understands what a Tradition is. Never mind the year it was given to publication: it looks as fresh today as it was then.

The reactions to his work have been explosive. Admirers speak in superlatives. Critics are ferociously mean. See for yourself.
But know that Hindus (Ananda Coomaraswamy and others) as well as Muslims (Hossein Nasr, authorities of Al-Azhar University, Centres of High Islamic Studies in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other places) and Daoists - and others, have puclicly acknowledged him as one of the very few people of Western extraction that truly understood those Traditions and did a good job at presenting them to a Western audience. In this context, Guenon&#039;s first published work - his doctoral thesis, rejected by the Sorbonne University in 1921 but now considered the best ever written introduction to Eastern traditions there is - should be also added to my short list: Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines (Introduction générale à l&#039;étude des doctrines hindoues, 1921). If you read it, you will find such a devastating criticism of the scholarly methods employed in the West (by the Orientalists and others) - tantamount to a mortal attack on the very people who would judge his doctoral thesis - that you need not wonder why they rejected it. But even if the title refers only to the doctrines of Hinduism, the first half of the book refers to all spiritual traditions in general, as well as to the only culture that lacks (now) a Tradition of its own: ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many thanks for clarifying an issue that has confounded people over a number of years, namely the assertion by Shah that he was a descendant of Prophet Mohammed on the male side.</p>
<p>May I also suggest Sheikh Abd-ul Wahid Yahya as one who also was much more straightforward than Shah about many important aspects of Sufism? </p>
<p>He wrote books under his French name: René Guénon.</p>
<p>I find his Perspectives on Initiation (Aperçus sur l&#8217;initiation, 1946) particularly enlightening on what a spiritual teacher is for and what a path of spiritual development truly is, that also clears away a lot of common misunderstandings.</p>
<p>Man and His Becoming according to the Vedânta (L&#8217;homme et son devenir selon le Vêdânta, 1925) is a very thorough description of the spiritual development possible to man even if presented by means of the terminology of the ancient Indian Vedas. The content of this book is a fundamental piece of information for anyone interested in the field. </p>
<p>I must also mention here (even if striving to make this list extremely short) The Reign of Quantity &amp; the Signs of the Times (Le règne de la quantité et les signes des temps, 1945) which is a thorough diagnosis of Western culture and civilization from the standpoint of one who understands what a Tradition is. Never mind the year it was given to publication: it looks as fresh today as it was then.</p>
<p>The reactions to his work have been explosive. Admirers speak in superlatives. Critics are ferociously mean. See for yourself.<br />
But know that Hindus (Ananda Coomaraswamy and others) as well as Muslims (Hossein Nasr, authorities of Al-Azhar University, Centres of High Islamic Studies in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other places) and Daoists &#8211; and others, have puclicly acknowledged him as one of the very few people of Western extraction that truly understood those Traditions and did a good job at presenting them to a Western audience. In this context, Guenon&#8217;s first published work &#8211; his doctoral thesis, rejected by the Sorbonne University in 1921 but now considered the best ever written introduction to Eastern traditions there is &#8211; should be also added to my short list: Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines (Introduction générale à l&#8217;étude des doctrines hindoues, 1921). If you read it, you will find such a devastating criticism of the scholarly methods employed in the West (by the Orientalists and others) &#8211; tantamount to a mortal attack on the very people who would judge his doctoral thesis &#8211; that you need not wonder why they rejected it. But even if the title refers only to the doctrines of Hinduism, the first half of the book refers to all spiritual traditions in general, as well as to the only culture that lacks (now) a Tradition of its own: ours.</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55462</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55462</guid>
		<description>&#039; in other words: enhancing the productive capacity in a way that goes against the Tao does not last long. short term enhancement, long term failure &#039;

I fully agree. And that is what happens when short-term thinking prompted by the need to increase the yields for the sake of an ever increasing rate of interest dominates the economy. Look at BP cutting corners and creating history&#039;s so far biggest environmental disaster in the waters of the Caribbean Sea. Survivors of the disgraced oil-plattform were not allowed to reach the coast before they had signed papers freeing BP from responsibilities and cutting them short of any possibilities of future legal claims against the company...

It is not the financiers - nor, particularly, Adam Smith - who really created and drove the technological development of the West but a system of credit issued by sovereign states and carefully directed to building up the infrastructure of the country. But that is history now...

A flight to Heaven needs not be impeded by people trying to be free from poverty and material backwardness, which are perfectly legitimate needs. But people deprived from their right to higher purposes by the &#039;wise&#039; of our culture know nothing but to behave as cattle and are an easy prey for the predators. They in turn know no better either for greed defeats itself in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216; in other words: enhancing the productive capacity in a way that goes against the Tao does not last long. short term enhancement, long term failure &#8216;</p>
<p>I fully agree. And that is what happens when short-term thinking prompted by the need to increase the yields for the sake of an ever increasing rate of interest dominates the economy. Look at BP cutting corners and creating history&#8217;s so far biggest environmental disaster in the waters of the Caribbean Sea. Survivors of the disgraced oil-plattform were not allowed to reach the coast before they had signed papers freeing BP from responsibilities and cutting them short of any possibilities of future legal claims against the company&#8230;</p>
<p>It is not the financiers &#8211; nor, particularly, Adam Smith &#8211; who really created and drove the technological development of the West but a system of credit issued by sovereign states and carefully directed to building up the infrastructure of the country. But that is history now&#8230;</p>
<p>A flight to Heaven needs not be impeded by people trying to be free from poverty and material backwardness, which are perfectly legitimate needs. But people deprived from their right to higher purposes by the &#8216;wise&#8217; of our culture know nothing but to behave as cattle and are an easy prey for the predators. They in turn know no better either for greed defeats itself in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55461</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55461</guid>
		<description>&#039;pulling in all different directions&#039; means each looking after their own personal security and benefits abd &#039;moving with the times&#039; means going along with the prevailing opinion to get along and have a comfortable ride - that is exactly what members of parlaments and congress - politicians - do, so cowardly, instead of really exercising their prerogatives to think and act for the good of all</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;pulling in all different directions&#8217; means each looking after their own personal security and benefits abd &#8216;moving with the times&#8217; means going along with the prevailing opinion to get along and have a comfortable ride &#8211; that is exactly what members of parlaments and congress &#8211; politicians &#8211; do, so cowardly, instead of really exercising their prerogatives to think and act for the good of all</p>
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		<title>By: jones</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55460</link>
		<dc:creator>jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55460</guid>
		<description>want to point out that you are using &#039;the flight to nature&#039; in a way entirely different from what Nasr means by the phrase... and it seems to me that Nasr&#039;s use is more in accord with what i&#039;d call the traditional view, as expressed by Lao Tzu.  

in this view, the promethean ability to &#039;enhance the productive capacity of society&#039; is perilous and amounts to what Nasr refers to (in traditional language) as a rebellion against Heaven.  in other words: enhancing the productive capacity in a way that goes against the Tao does not last long.  short term enhancement, long term failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>want to point out that you are using &#8216;the flight to nature&#8217; in a way entirely different from what Nasr means by the phrase&#8230; and it seems to me that Nasr&#8217;s use is more in accord with what i&#8217;d call the traditional view, as expressed by Lao Tzu.  </p>
<p>in this view, the promethean ability to &#8216;enhance the productive capacity of society&#8217; is perilous and amounts to what Nasr refers to (in traditional language) as a rebellion against Heaven.  in other words: enhancing the productive capacity in a way that goes against the Tao does not last long.  short term enhancement, long term failure.</p>
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		<title>By: Ibn Abdul Shafi</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55459</link>
		<dc:creator>Ibn Abdul Shafi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55459</guid>
		<description>A correction, and then a recommendation. You mention:
&quot;Shah claimed “senior descent from Muhammad” in the “male line of descent.”&quot;

etc.
In this point a correction needs to be made.

Descendants of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the 4th Sunni Caliph and first Sh&#039;ia Imam are Sayyids. There are other lineages of &quot;asraf&quot; whose connection with various family members of the Prophet bestows nobility, but the line of Sayyids Shah claims descent from would be from childrne of Ali.

Ali was the husband of Fatima, daughter of the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him and his progeny) 

Ali was an adopted son of the Prophet, so descent from him is considered to be a Sayyid.

Ali&#039;s two sons, Hassan and Hussain, were the sons of both Fatima and Ali.

Also what Shah likely meant is that his father&#039;s line were Sayyids, not his mothers. His mother was a Scottish convert to Islam to logically the only lineage from the Prophet Shah could have had was from his father, hence his meaning was true in this instance.

Shah was an interesting and intelligent writer. But there is very much the trickester in him. Like Casteneda, but smarter.  There are books by Shah that are much, much, better than &quot;The Sufis&quot;

Someone who really wants to understand the sufis and their relation to Islam and culture in the middle east is best reading much different works. 

Someone interested in the sort of &quot;waking up&quot; that Shah was trying to hint at would have to be very careful and weigh fully what he or she reads.

Shah I suspect was trying to communicate very profound things, to an audience of Westerners, conditioned and tragically dumbed down in certain ways so as to prevent the reception of certain types of information, due to centuries of indoctrination prejudice and simple in-access to certain languages and information.

You may find &quot;Book of Strangers&quot; by Ian Dallas to also be of interest. It is a modern story and allegory of Sufi initiation by a Scottish Shaykh of the Darqawi brotherhood. He is more straightforward about certain matter than Shah was, in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A correction, and then a recommendation. You mention:<br />
&#8220;Shah claimed “senior descent from Muhammad” in the “male line of descent.”&#8221;</p>
<p>etc.<br />
In this point a correction needs to be made.</p>
<p>Descendants of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the 4th Sunni Caliph and first Sh&#8217;ia Imam are Sayyids. There are other lineages of &#8220;asraf&#8221; whose connection with various family members of the Prophet bestows nobility, but the line of Sayyids Shah claims descent from would be from childrne of Ali.</p>
<p>Ali was the husband of Fatima, daughter of the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him and his progeny) </p>
<p>Ali was an adopted son of the Prophet, so descent from him is considered to be a Sayyid.</p>
<p>Ali&#8217;s two sons, Hassan and Hussain, were the sons of both Fatima and Ali.</p>
<p>Also what Shah likely meant is that his father&#8217;s line were Sayyids, not his mothers. His mother was a Scottish convert to Islam to logically the only lineage from the Prophet Shah could have had was from his father, hence his meaning was true in this instance.</p>
<p>Shah was an interesting and intelligent writer. But there is very much the trickester in him. Like Casteneda, but smarter.  There are books by Shah that are much, much, better than &#8220;The Sufis&#8221;</p>
<p>Someone who really wants to understand the sufis and their relation to Islam and culture in the middle east is best reading much different works. </p>
<p>Someone interested in the sort of &#8220;waking up&#8221; that Shah was trying to hint at would have to be very careful and weigh fully what he or she reads.</p>
<p>Shah I suspect was trying to communicate very profound things, to an audience of Westerners, conditioned and tragically dumbed down in certain ways so as to prevent the reception of certain types of information, due to centuries of indoctrination prejudice and simple in-access to certain languages and information.</p>
<p>You may find &#8220;Book of Strangers&#8221; by Ian Dallas to also be of interest. It is a modern story and allegory of Sufi initiation by a Scottish Shaykh of the Darqawi brotherhood. He is more straightforward about certain matter than Shah was, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55458</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55458</guid>
		<description>By the way, Adam Smith could hardly be said to have any &#039;intellectual progenie&#039; since he lacked a real intellect himself to begin with. He was only creating a false argument - his famous &#039;invisible hand&#039; of &#039;the markets&#039; that Wall Street and the City of London (progenie, indeed) so admire - until they run into bankruptcy and governments of the world must pool together - with very visible hands - what money they have collected from tax payers to bail them out of their fraudulent Ponzi-schemes with ficticious assets drawn onto the real, physical assets of the world - which they so gladly destroy with their bubbles.
The country of Liu I-ming was similarly destroyed with opium at the point of the guns and canons of Adams Smith&#039;s co-subjects of Her Majesty and Her Most Glorious East India Company - not to talk about the atrocities they did in India (have you heard of the carnages in Amritsar?) or in Africa (do you know about Cecil Rhodes?) or America or Oceania or.. you name it. Those people do not even qualify as human beings least of all as intellectuals of any sort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, Adam Smith could hardly be said to have any &#8216;intellectual progenie&#8217; since he lacked a real intellect himself to begin with. He was only creating a false argument &#8211; his famous &#8216;invisible hand&#8217; of &#8216;the markets&#8217; that Wall Street and the City of London (progenie, indeed) so admire &#8211; until they run into bankruptcy and governments of the world must pool together &#8211; with very visible hands &#8211; what money they have collected from tax payers to bail them out of their fraudulent Ponzi-schemes with ficticious assets drawn onto the real, physical assets of the world &#8211; which they so gladly destroy with their bubbles.<br />
The country of Liu I-ming was similarly destroyed with opium at the point of the guns and canons of Adams Smith&#8217;s co-subjects of Her Majesty and Her Most Glorious East India Company &#8211; not to talk about the atrocities they did in India (have you heard of the carnages in Amritsar?) or in Africa (do you know about Cecil Rhodes?) or America or Oceania or.. you name it. Those people do not even qualify as human beings least of all as intellectuals of any sort.</p>
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		<title>By: Hector</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55457</link>
		<dc:creator>Hector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:11:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55457</guid>
		<description>The Prometheus myth (I have a lazy tendency to jump the dictionnary when I write, even knowing I had forgotten the &#039;h&#039;, sorry) may be interpreted in many ways. Hossein Nasr&#039;s way of using it is not mine for I was not talking about a rebellion against Heaven, you see, but a rebellion against the financial circles that loot the existing physical resources of the world and would not gladly tolerate investments in enhanced productivity nor intellectual development in the underdeveloped OR the so called &#039;industrial&#039; countries - look at the accelerated downfall of the US and European countries and you will see what I mean.

But I also recognize that &#039;the flight to nature&#039; (enhancing the productive capacity of society) may contradict the spiritual quest.  I wrote in my posting above that &#039;two - perhaps mutually contradictory - propositions are basically true about mankind.&#039;

In this respect, I share the view of René Guénon - whom I have now referred three times in my postings here - because he was very clear about Western culture being an aberration in being the only one that has deprived mankind of a Tradition - in the spiritual sense of the world - and become a purely material civilization. So much so, that the word &#039;material&#039; as is employed since Descartes first used it as the opposite to the mental world, does not have equivalents in the major and oldest languages of the world but had to be translated, as from the preceding century, with new verbal constructions. So, you see this culture of ours going sour because it has lost its Heart (what used to be Christianity) towards the 13th century, which is when the Middle Ages really ended.

Sadly enough, other cultures, which should preserve their own Traiditions, have become infected by ours. I have mentioned that this development has been predicted. Among several such predictions (or forecasts, all depends on how you look at them) I mentioned the division in four eras or Yugas made in Hinduism, the last of which is called the Dark Age or Kali Yuga, in which we are now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Prometheus myth (I have a lazy tendency to jump the dictionnary when I write, even knowing I had forgotten the &#8216;h&#8217;, sorry) may be interpreted in many ways. Hossein Nasr&#8217;s way of using it is not mine for I was not talking about a rebellion against Heaven, you see, but a rebellion against the financial circles that loot the existing physical resources of the world and would not gladly tolerate investments in enhanced productivity nor intellectual development in the underdeveloped OR the so called &#8216;industrial&#8217; countries &#8211; look at the accelerated downfall of the US and European countries and you will see what I mean.</p>
<p>But I also recognize that &#8216;the flight to nature&#8217; (enhancing the productive capacity of society) may contradict the spiritual quest.  I wrote in my posting above that &#8216;two &#8211; perhaps mutually contradictory &#8211; propositions are basically true about mankind.&#8217;</p>
<p>In this respect, I share the view of René Guénon &#8211; whom I have now referred three times in my postings here &#8211; because he was very clear about Western culture being an aberration in being the only one that has deprived mankind of a Tradition &#8211; in the spiritual sense of the world &#8211; and become a purely material civilization. So much so, that the word &#8216;material&#8217; as is employed since Descartes first used it as the opposite to the mental world, does not have equivalents in the major and oldest languages of the world but had to be translated, as from the preceding century, with new verbal constructions. So, you see this culture of ours going sour because it has lost its Heart (what used to be Christianity) towards the 13th century, which is when the Middle Ages really ended.</p>
<p>Sadly enough, other cultures, which should preserve their own Traiditions, have become infected by ours. I have mentioned that this development has been predicted. Among several such predictions (or forecasts, all depends on how you look at them) I mentioned the division in four eras or Yugas made in Hinduism, the last of which is called the Dark Age or Kali Yuga, in which we are now.</p>
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		<title>By: jones</title>
		<link>http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690&#038;cpage=1#comment-55454</link>
		<dc:creator>jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 02:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://androidsinlove.com/site/?p=690#comment-55454</guid>
		<description>*her* legacy... and yes, i agree, worth pondering.  thanks for the epitaph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*her* legacy&#8230; and yes, i agree, worth pondering.  thanks for the epitaph.</p>
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